MN 95

With Canki

Canki Sutta

Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center

A Dhamma talk by Bhante Vimalaramsi

05-Oct-06

 

BV: This is kind of an interesting sutta. I think you'll get off on it.

MN:

1. THUS HAVE I HEARD. On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering in the Kosalan country with a large Sangha of bhikkhus, and eventually he arrived at a Kosalan Brahmin village named Opasāda. There the Blessed One stayed in the Gods’ Grove, the Sāla-tree Grove to the north of Opasāda.

2. Now on that occasion the brahmin Cankī was ruling over Opasāda, a crown property abounding in living beings, rich in grasslands, woodlands, waterways, and grain, a royal endowment, a sacred grant given to him by King Pasenadi of Kosala.

BV: They had a lot of divisions. If somebody did something that made the ruler of the entire area,  made him happy, then he would give him this area or that area to take care of, with this many villages, and this many towns, and this many cities, and…. So he was one of those kind of people.

MN:

{3. The brahmin householders of Opasāda heard: "The recluse Gotama, the son of the Sakyans who went forth from a Sakyan clan, has been wandering in the country of the Videhans with a large Sangha of bhikkhus, with five hundred bhikkhus. Now a good report of Master Gotama has been spread to this effect: 'The Blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed. He declares this world with its gods, its Māras, and its Brahmas, this generation with its recluses and brahmins, with its princes and its people, which he has himself realised with direct knowledge. He teaches the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and he reveals a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure.' Now it is good to see such arahants."}  

4. Then the brahmin householders of Opasāda set forth from Opasāda in groups and bands and headed northwards to the Gods' Grove, the Sāla-tree Grove.

5. Now on that occasion the brahmin Cankī had retired to the upper storey of his palace for his midday rest. Then he saw the brahmin householders of Opasāda setting forth from Opasāda in groups and bands and heading northwards to the Gods' Grove, the Sāla-tree Grove. When he saw them, he asked his minister: "Good minister, why are the brahmin householders of Opasāda setting forth from Opasāda in groups and bands and heading northwards to the Gods' Grove, the Sāla-tree Grove?"

6. "Sir, there is the recluse Gotama, the son of the Sakyans who went forth from a Sakyan clan, who has been wandering in the Kosalan country...(as §3)...They are going to see that Master Gotama."

"Then, good minister, go to the brahmin householders of Opasāda and tell them: 'Sirs, the brahmin Cankī says this: "Please wait, sirs. The brahmin Cankī will also go to see the recluse Gotama."'"

"Yes, sir," the minister replied, and he went to the brahmin householders of Opasāda and gave them the message.

7. Now on that occasion five hundred brahmins from various states were staying at Opasāda for some business or other. They heard: "The brahmin Cankī, it is said, is going to see the recluse Gotama." Then they went to the brahmin Cankī and asked him: "Sir, is it true that you are going to see the recluse Gotama?"

"So it is, sirs. I am going to see the recluse Gotama."

8. "Sir, do not go to see the recluse Gotama. It is not proper, Master Cankī, for you to go to see the recluse Gotama; rather, it is proper for the recluse Gotama to come to see you. For you, sir, are well born on both sides, of pure maternal and paternal descent seven generations back, unassailable and impeccable in respect of birth. Since that is so, Master Cankī, it is not proper for you to go to see the recluse Gotama; rather, it is proper for the recluse Gotama to come to see you. You, sir, are rich, with great wealth and great possessions. You, sir, are a master of the Three Vedas with their vocabularies, liturgy, phonology, and etymology, and the histories as a fifth; skilled in philology and grammar, you are fully versed in natural philosophy and in the marks of a Great Man. You, sir, are handsome, comely, and graceful, possessing supreme beauty of complexion, with sublime beauty and sublime presence, remarkable to behold. You, sir, are virtuous, mature in virtue, possessing mature virtue. You, sir, are a good speaker with a good delivery; you speak words that are courteous, distinct, flawless, and communicate the meaning. You, sir, teach the teachers of many, and you teach the recitation of the hymns to three hundred brahmin students. You, sir, are honoured, respected, revered, venerated, and esteemed by King Pasenadi of Kosala. You, sir, are honoured, respected, revered, venerated, and esteemed by the brahmin Pokkharasati. You, sir, rule over Opasāda, a crown property abounding in living beings...a sacred grant given to you by King Pasenadi of Kosala. Since this is so, Master Cankī, it is not proper for you to go to see the recluse Gotama; rather, it is proper for the recluse Gotama to come to see you."

9. When this was said, the brahmin Cankī told those brahmins: "Now, sirs, hear from me why it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama, and why it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is well born on both sides, of pure maternal and paternal descent seven generations back, unassailable and impeccable in respect of birth. Since this is so, sirs, it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me; rather, it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth abandoning much gold and bullion stored away in vaults and depositories. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from the home life into homelessness while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life. Sirs, the recluse Gotama shaved off his hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into homelessness though his mother and father wished otherwise and wept with tearful faces. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is handsome, comely, and graceful, possessing supreme beauty of complexion, with sublime beauty and sublime presence, remarkable to behold. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is virtuous, with noble virtue, with wholesome virtue, possessing wholesome virtue. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a good speaker with a good delivery; he speaks words that are courteous, distinct, flawless, and communicate the meaning. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a teacher of the teachers of many. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is free from sensual lust and without personal vanity. Sirs, the recluse Gotama holds the doctrine of the moral efficacy of action, the doctrine of the moral efficacy of deeds; he does not seek any harm for the line of brahmins. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from an aristocratic family, from one of the original noble families. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from a rich family, from a family of great wealth and great possessions. Sirs, people come from remote kingdoms and remote districts to question the recluse Gotama. Sirs, many thousands of deities have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotama. Sirs, a good report of the recluse Gotama has been spread to this effect: That Blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.' Sirs, the recluse Gotama possesses the thirty-two marks of a Great Man. Sirs, King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha and his wife and children have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotama. Sirs, King Pasenadi of Kosala and his wife and children have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotama. Sirs, the brahmin Pokkharasati and his wife and children have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotam. Sirs, the recluse Gotama has arrived at Opasāda and is living at Opasāda in the Gods' Grove, the Sāla-tree Grove to the north of Opasāda. Now any recluses or brahmins that come to our town are our guests, and guests should be honoured, respected, revered, and venerated by us. Since the recluse Gotama has arrived at Opasāda, he is our guest, and as our guest should be honoured, respected, revered, and venerated by us. Since this is so, sirs, it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me; rather, it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama.

"Sirs, this much is the praise of Master Gotama that I have learned, but the praise of Master Gotama is not limited to that for the praise of Master Gotama is immeasurable. Since Master Gotama possesses each one of these factors, it is not proper for him to come to see me; rather, it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama. Therefore, sirs, let all of us go to see the recluse Gotama."

10. Then the brahmin Cankī, together with a large company of brahmins, went to the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When this courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side.

11. Now on that occasion the Blessed One was seated finishing some amiable talk with some very senior brahmins. At the time, sitting in the assembly, was a brahmin student named Kāpaṭhika. Young, shaven-headed, sixteen years old, he was a master of the Three Vedas with their vocabularies, liturgy, phonology, and etymology, and the histories as a fifth; skilled in philology and grammar, he was fully versed in natural philosophy and in the marks of a Great Man. While the very senior brahmins were conversing with the Blessed One, he often broke in and interrupted their talk. Then the Blessed One rebuked the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika thus: "Let not the venerable Bhāradvāja break in and interrupt the talk of the very senior brahmins while they are conversing. Let the venerable Bhāradvāja wait until the talk is finished."

When this was said, the brahmin Cankī said to the Blessed One: "Let not Master Gotama rebuke the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika. The brahmin student Kāpaṭhika is a clansman, he is very learned, he has a good delivery, he is wise; he is capable of taking part in this discussion with Master Gotama."

12. Then the Blessed One thought: "Surely, since the brahmins honour him thus, the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika must be accomplished in the scriptures of the Three Vedas."

Then the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika thought: "When the recluse Gotama catches my eye, I shall ask him a question."

Then, knowing with his own mind the thought in the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika's mind, the Blessed One turned his eye towards him. Then the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika thought: "The recluse Gotama has turned towards me. Suppose I ask him a question." Then he said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, In regard to the ancient brahmanic hymns that have come down through oral transmission and in the scriptural collections, the brahmins come to the definite conclusion: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.' What does Master Gotama say about this?"

13. "How then, Bhāradvāja, among the brahmins is there even : a single brahmin who says thus: 'I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong'?"—"No, Master Gotama."

"How then, Bhāradvāja, among the brahmins is there even a single teacher or a single teacher's teacher back to the seventh generation of teachers who says thus: 'I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong'?"—"No, Master Gotama."

"How then, Bhāradvāja, the ancient brahmin seers, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns, whose ancient hymns that were formerly chanted, uttered, and compiled, the brahmins nowadays still chant and repeat, repeating what was spoken and reciting what was recited—

BV: Oh, geez. There’s a bunch of names here, and I’m not going to go into that.

MN:

{that is, Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vasettha, Kassapa, and Bhagu —}

did even these ancient brahmin seers say thus: 'We know this, we see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong'?"— "No, Master Gotama."

"So, Bhāradvāja, it seems that among the brahmins there is not even a single brahmin who says thus: 'I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.' And among the brahmins there is not even a single teacher or a single teacher's teacher back to the seventh generation of teachers, who says thus: 'I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.' And the ancient brahmin seers, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns… even these ancient brahmin seers did not say thus: 'We know this, we see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.' Suppose there were a file of blind men each in touch with the next: the first one does not see, the middle one does not see, and the last one does not see. So too, Bhāradvāja, in regard to their statement the brahmins seem to be like a file of blind men: the first one does not see, the middle one does not see, and the last one does not see. What do you think, Bhāradvāja, that being so, does not the faith of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?"

14. "The brahmins honour this not only out of faith, Master Gotama. They also honour it as oral tradition."

"Bhāradvāja, first you took your stand on faith, now you speak of oral tradition. There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. [Under these conditions] it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.'"

15. "But, Master Gotama, in what way is there the preservation of truth? How does one preserve truth? We ask Master Gotama about the preservation of truth."

"If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: 'My faith is thus'; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.' In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.

 "If a person approves of something if he receives an oral tradition…if he [reaches a conclusion based on] reasoned cogitation if he gains a reflective acceptance of a view, he preserves truth when he says: 'My reflective acceptance of a view is thus'; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.' In this way too, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth."

16. "In that way, Master Gotama, there is the preservation of truth; in that way one preserves truth; in that way we recognise the preservation of truth. But in what way, Master Gotama, is there the discovery of truth? In what way does one discover truth? We ask Master Gotama about the discovery of truth."

17. "Here, Bhāradvāja, a bhikkhu may be living in dependence on some village or town. Then a householder or a householder's son goes to him and investigates him in regard to three kinds of states: in regard to states based on greed, in regard to states based on hate, and in regard to states based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any states based on greed such that, with his mind obsessed by those states, while not knowing he might say, "I know," or while not seeing he might say, "I see," or he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?' As he investigates him he comes to know: 'There are no such states based on greed in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by greed. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by greed.'

18. "When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on greed, he next investigates him in regard to states based on hate: 'Are there in this venerable one any states based on hate such that, with his mind obsessed by those states...he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?' As he investigates him, he comes to know: 'There are no such states based on hate in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by hate. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound...to be experienced by the wise. This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by hate.'

19. "When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on hate, he next investigates him in regard to states based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any states based on delusion such that, with his mind obsessed by those states...he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?'

BV: What is delusion? 

[silence]

What is delusion?

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Of what?

S:  The truth.

BV: And what is the truth?

S:  [inaudible]

BV: OK. I’m not playing with you, honest. I'm just seeing what…

Delusion is the belief that thoughts and feelings are yours personally. It’s when you have a deluded mind, that means you have atta. When you have an undeluded mind it means anatta. So that'll help make this a little bit clearer.

MN:  

{As he investigates him, he comes to know:}

 There are no such states based on delusion in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by delusion. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound...to be experienced by the wise.

BV: Now what we're talking about here, is the seeing of Dependent Origination. And that's what he's really talking about when he says you see that… understood by and experienced by the wise. Wisdom, every time it's mentioned in the suttas, it’s talking about Dependent Origination.

MN:

This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by delusion.'

BV: Now in some traditions, they call these the three poisons. And everybody knows what greed is, or lust, and hatred is, but almost nobody understands what delusion is. You should hear some of the answers I get when I ask people what delusion is. So, try to keep that in mind, that every time you relax, you're letting go of delusion. Because right after you relax, there's a clear space that has very good awareness in it, that there's no self identifying with it, it's just this pure awareness.

S:  So what is clinging?

BV: Clinging are all of the thoughts about whatever your craving is on. It’s a feeling, at one of the sense doors, right? In order to see, you have a good working eye, color and form; the meeting of the three is called contact. Now this is directly Dependent Origination. With contact as condition, feeling arises. With feeling as condition, craving arises. With craving as condition, clinging arises. This is your thoughts, your opinions, your imaginations, your story, your concepts. Basically your thought-y mind. And when you take an opinion or you take a concept, and you start saying "This is right! This is what I believe!" now you're attaching a lot of clinging onto that. And like it says here, maybe it's right and maybe it's not, it just depends. But when you see something without the clinging, and without the craving, you're seeing it with such a pure mind -- you're seeing it with an arahat's mind.

S:  So you don't necessarily have to see each one of those things, because they may not be there.

BV: Well, when you let go of the craving, the clinging doesn't arise, the habitual tendency doesn't arise, and the rest of the Dependent Origination, the birth and the sorrow and lamentation and all that stuff doesn't arise either.

So that's one of the reasons why craving is such a major thing that it's talked about in the suttas.

S:  So craving is the identification?

BV: It's the start of the identification process. Now when I'm telling you to look and see what happens in between the feeling and the craving, I'm telling you to look at craving even more closely. Because this is subtle stuff. And it always is the start of "I am that. I like that. I don't like that." When it gets into the clinging, that's when the big "yeah" and the attachment to the concepts and the imaginations and ideas and story about, and taking it personally, and then your habitual tendencies - which Than Jeff doesn't like that I use “habitual tendencies” for bhava, because that's what it is. I had a major discussion with U Silananda about this and we agreed. The habitual tendency is your justification of your clinging, and you're holding onto that view. It's the thing that really grabs onto that view and says "I'm right, you're wrong." and when you let go of craving, in its subtlest form, your mind is so pure, none of that other stuff comes into being. This is why craving is considered to be the weak link in Dependent Origination. Because there's no identification unless there is craving. Now, you have this pure awareness, that you're able to see things.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: You see anicca, dukkha, anatta automatically.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Because you're seeing, when you see Dependent Origination, you're seeing the rising and passing away of things. And you're seeing the cause and effect of these things. You're seeing that when you let go of the craving, there is no dukkha after that. But as long as there's even the littlest flash of craving, there is dukkha, and that is the identification with it. "I"-identification with it.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Yeah. And, that also very much clouds your experience.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Right. Right. Somebody calls me up on the phone and they tell me something I don't like to hear and all of a sudden there's anger coming up. And that means that your habitual tendency of the way you look at the world is taking you completely away from the present moment. And it causes all kinds of pain and suffering to arise.

Because I put a stress on smiling, that helps your mind to be light enough to be able to catch these other things, so you stop identifying with them. You know "It's just this feeling, it's a painful feeling, yeah, so it's painful, so what?"  It's allowing the feeling to be, without reacting to it.

S:  So if you keep going with the smiling, is keeping…

BV: You're keeping your mind open and light. You're gonna be sensitive to it.

SK:  And you're gonna catch... Before I met Bhante I was still working for a couple years, and he says you gotta use the mirror by the telephone. The mirror HAS to be by the telephone. You're not allowed to handle any situation on the telephone without the mirror there.

BV: But you have to LOOK at yourself while you do it, that's the one! She has the telephone there, has the mirror there for a little while, puts it down forgets about it! <laughs>

S:  [inaudible]

BV: And like Ann said, Usel's wife? “It's hard to be mad when you're smiling!” <laughs> Now she's a brilliant lady, she really is.

MN:

20. "When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on delusion, then he places faith in him; filled with faith he visits him and pays respect to him; having paid respect to him, he gives ear; when he gives ear, he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom..  

BV: Now you start to get a more of a feel of the instructions are real simple, and real precise, and they go through everything. That's one of the things that just blew my mind when I started getting into the suttas. I started seeing how absolutely precise, he was by giving the instructions the way he did. That it works in every situation.  And ohh man. That's why I went out for two weeks and wound up staying three months, I couldn't believe it! And I kept having to go back and say, "I wanna see that again!" <laughs> No.

MN:

In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the discovery of truth; in this way one discovers truth; in this way we describe the discovery of truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth."

BV: I wanna do this again, just because it's really good.

   Repeats("When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on delusion, then he places faith in him; filled with faith he visits him and pays respect to him; having paid respect to him, he gives ear; when he gives ear, he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will;)

BV: That is he starts making the choices. Either, or not.

  Continues repeat (he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the supreme truth)

Now the body is, the relaxing of the tension, because it's done in the body and in the mind. That's another reason why the instructions in the Anapana Sutta are amazing, because it's only four sentences, and it tells you exactly: You tranquilize the bodily formation. That means the subtle tightnesses that arise in body, when you do that, the tightnesses in the mind go away. It's really something! I mean it's way too simple for us folks. <laughs> We have to have it much more complicated than that.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Yeah. At least.

  Continues repeat (and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the discovery of truth; in this way one discovers truth; in this way we describe the discovery of truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.")

MN:

21. "In that way, Master Gotama, there is the discovery of truth; in that way one discovers truth; in that way we recognise the discovery of truth. But in what way, Master Gotama, is there the final arrival at truth? In what way does one finally arrive at truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final arrival at truth."

BV: Now it's getting good. <laughs>

MN:

"The final arrival at truth, Bhāradvāja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things.

BV: The repetition, the development, and cultivation. The development is the development of the habit of letting go of craving, as soon as any tiny feeling starts to arise. So you can say, that as soon as feeling arises, and you relax right then, craving won't arise.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Well, but it's release, relax, and return to your object of meditation, and your object of meditation gets really subtle as your breath, on the breath you start doing that, and you start seeing there's all kinds of other tiny, tiny little feelings that are there. And they keep getting more and more subtle, as you go deeper. Until finally you get to the state of neither perception nor non-perception, because you can't perceive whether there's any tension there or not. There still is, but you can't perceive, it in a regular way. When you get OUT of that state, then you start reflecting what you saw when you were in that state, and then you can say "Yeah there's still this little tightness, so there still needs to be more relaxing while I'm in that state."

Now, this is where it gets tricky. Because when people practice one-pointed concentration, the breath just seems to disappear, and they don't see it anymore. But, according to some of the suttas, there is still the five aggregates that are present, even when you go into the arupa jhanas. That means there is still contact, and there's still breath, causing that contact to arise. And the breath is the reminder to relax. And then it gets real subtle with different things that start happening as you go deeper; it just gets great.

S:  But you can... each time you release, and you relax, that's the thought where it's like another lens that comes in and you can see a little more..

BV: Right, but it's only teeny, tiny at a time…

S:  Oh yeah! But that's where, if you release and you don't relax, and you let the lens plunk in and you look, you start to notice that it's deeper and it's deeper, and the subtle little things like, you know, looking at the.... nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception, it's so completely subtle, but if you start to go through...

BV: Yeah. That's why the development of the habitual tendency of

S:  Right.

S:  [inaudible]

BV: Yeah, that's the way it is, but then you have to reflect of what's happening when you're in there. By the time you get to that state, you should have developed the habit of doing this often. But you don't see any breath at that time. But you don't see. You just see there are some mental things that happen while you're in there.

S: ...realization of the absorption taking place…

BV: But it's not really absorption. It's just the subtler and subtler vibrations of mind. It's not really being absorbed. Because by that time you should still have that habit of relaxing.

SK:  ... remember how she used to say when she came out, she took a walk, she couldn't remember anything. There just wasn't anything to remember. It was absorption. But a couple times she did experience, where she could walk around afterwards and she could remember a little bit of what was going on, and that's what you need, the awareness is there afterwards.

BV: Well, no the awareness is there, but it's hard to tell whether it's there, and there is still a little bit of feeling there. That’s not the state of neither perception and feeling, nor... neither or, with perception and feeling; it’s just perception. The feeling is still there, and that’s the thing that’s still vibrating a little bit too. Then when you get to the cessation of the perception and feeling, that’s when everything stops. And that’s why you need to have that habit of relaxing. Because every time you relax, the vibration becomes less, and less, and less, and less, until it does stop.

Well, when the perception and feeling start arising again, that’s when your mindfulness is so incredibly sharp, that you see exactly how it works. You see the cause and effect, and you see when this doesn’t arise, that won’t arise, and you see the cessation. And then: the big whoopee.  <Big sigh>      Great stuff.

MN:

In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the final arrival at truth; in this way one finally arrives at truth; in this way we describe the final arrival at truth."

22. "In that way, Master Gotama, there is the final arrival at truth; in that way one finally arrives at truth; in that way we recognise the final arrival at truth. But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for the final arrival at truth?

BV: Good question.

MN:

 We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for the final arrival at truth."

"Striving is most helpful for the final arrival at truth, Bhāradvāja. If one does not strive, one will not finally arrive at truth; but because one strives, one does finally arrive at truth. That is why striving is most helpful for the final arrival at truth."

23. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for striving? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for striving."

"Scrutiny

BV: Now when we talk of…. I kind of don’t like this word. Instead of “scrutiny,” <dog barking> I much rather prefer “interest.” The more interest you have in the subtlety of how things are working... Now you’re scrutinizing it, yeah you are, but it’s the interest, it’s the thing that just keeps you going with it, like “Woooow, look at that, this is great stuff!” And you have to do this in a balanced way.

Repeats (Scrutiny)

MN:

is most helpful for striving, Bhāradvāja. If one does not scrutinise, one will not strive; but because one scrutinises, one strives. That is why scrutiny is most helpful for striving."

24. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for scrutiny? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for scrutiny."

"Application of the will

BV: The conscious decision to keep doing this. Keep relaxing.

MN:

is most helpful for scrutiny, Bhāradvāja. If one does not apply one's will, one will not scrutinise; but because one applies one's will, one scrutinises. That is why application of the will is most helpful for scrutiny."

25. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for application of the will? We ask the Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for application of the will."

"Zeal is most helpful for application of the will, Bhāradvāja. If one does not arouse zeal, one will not apply one's will; but because one arouses zeal, one applies one's will. That is why zeal is most helpful for application of the will."

26. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for zeal?  We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for zeal."

"A reflective acceptance of the teachings is most helpful for zeal, Bhāradvāja. If one does not gain a reflective acceptance of the teachings, zeal will not spring up; but because one gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings, zeal springs up. That is why a reflective acceptance of the teachings is most helpful for zeal."

27. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for a reflective acceptance of the teachings? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for a reflective acceptance of the teachings."

"Examination of the meaning is most helpful for a reflective acceptance of the teachings, Bhāradvāja. If one does not examine their meaning, one will not gain a reflective acceptance of the teachings; but because one examines their meaning, one gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings. That is why examination of the meaning is most helpful for a reflective acceptance of the teachings."

28. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for examination of the meaning? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for examination of meaning."

"Memorising the teachings is most helpful for examining the meaning, Bhāradvāja. If one does not memorise a teaching, one will not examine its meaning; but because one memorises a teaching, one examines its meaning."

29. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for memorising the teachings? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for memorising the teachings."

"Hearing the Dhamma is most helpful for memorising the teachings, Bhāradvāja. If one does not hear the Dhamma, one will not memorise the teachings; but because one hears the Dhamma, one memorises the teachings. That is why hearing the Dhamma is most helpful for memorising the teachings."

30. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for hearing the Dhamma."

"Giving ear is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma, Bhāradvāja. If one does not give ear, one will not hear the Dhamma; but because one gives ear, one hears the Dhamma. That is why giving ear is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma."

31. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for giving ear? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for giving ear."

"Paying respect is most helpful for giving ear, Bhāradvāja. If one does not pay respect, one will not give ear; but because one pays respect, one gives ear. That is why paying respect is most helpful for giving ear."

32. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for paying respect? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for paying respect."

"Visiting is most helpful for paying respect, Bhāradvāja. If one does not visit [a teacher], one will not pay respect to him; but because one visits [a teacher], one pays respect to him. That is why visiting is most helpful for paying respect."

33. "But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for visiting? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for visiting." "Faith is most helpful for visiting, Bhāradvāja. If faith [in a teacher] does not arise, one will not visit him; but because faith [in a teacher] arises, one visits him. That is why faith is most helpful for visiting."

34. "We asked Master Gotama about the preservation of truth, and Master Gotama answered about the preservation of truth; we approve of and accept that answer, and so we are satisfied. We asked Master Gotama about the discovery of truth, and Master Gotama answered about the discovery of truth; we approve of and accept that answer, and so we are satisfied. We asked Master Gotama about the final arrival at truth, and Master Gotama answered about the final arrival at truth; we approve of and accept that answer, and so we are satisfied. We asked Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for the final arrival at truth, and Master Gotama answered about the thing most helpful for the final arrival at truth; we approve of and accept that answer, and so we are satisfied. Whatever we asked Master Gotama about, that he has answered us; we approve of and accept that answer, and so we are satisfied. Formerly, Master Gotama, we used to think: 'Who are these bald-pated recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet, that they would understand the Dhamma?' But Master Gotama has indeed inspired in me love for recluses, confidence in recluses, reverence for recluses.

35. "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, {Master Gotama! Master Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. I go to Master Gotama for refuge and to the Dhamma and to the Sangha of bhikkhus.} From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge for life."  

BV: That’s a really, it was a major coup, this particular sutta, when he gave it to this young Brahman student, because there were so many other Brahman teachers around at the time, and they all accepted the Buddha’s teaching, and they let go of the Brahmanism of a permanent self. A lot of people became enlightened with this particular sutta.

I like that sutta a lot. I really do. <laughs> And it touches on things that, if you don’t really have a practice you would never understand the subtleties of what the Buddha was talking with this particular sutta. You can go to some of the Dhamma teachers, even like, well, just some of the big teachers in this country that really are renowned for their scholarship, and because they don’t have the practice in the same way that the Buddha was describing, they will skip over some of the finer points of that. Like what is delusion? And what you gave was a good answer. But it wasn’t as precise as it could be, that’s why I kept going with that, so that you could see that yeah, what you said is true, but you gotta go deeper. And then you gave another answer, and you gotta go deeper then. And… as far as I can see, seeing the characteristics of all existence, it just boils down to one characteristic. And that is, anatta. When you see everything that arises, every one of the links of Dependent Origination as being an impersonal process, it’s just a causal and effect thing that’s happening, and when you see that in each one of those links, that to me is when you actually get the deep realization that this is the way it is. And with that deep understanding, there’s that openness. And nibbana occurs because of that, because of that deep understanding. And each level of the jhana is another level of your understanding of the process, because you’re going more and more subtle all the time, and you’re starting to see little tiny things, where before you were seeing these huge movements. And you got real enthusiastic because you could see those, now you’re starting to work with the real fine stuff. And trying to keep your meditation going all of the time. I don’t care what you’re doing, keep your meditation going, keep relaxing, keep letting go. You have a thought, and the thought might all of a sudden be “It shouldn’t be like this” - a critical thought. Now that’s anger. That’s aversion. That’s dislike of the feeling of whatever sense door it was that caused that to arise. And you get a chance to see how really fast that really comes, and all of a sudden you’re caught in your habitual tendencies. And the faster you can recognize that and let it go, the easier everything becomes. And the more subtleness you start to see when you’re able to do that. Doing the daily activities is a very important part of the practice. Because that’s when your calmness isn’t as deep as it could be, and you still see some of the old tendencies starting to come up.

Now when I would tell people that I don’t want them to take anything seriously, and to smile into everything, there’s a definite reason for doing that. Because when you have that smile into what you’re doing in the present moment, you can start to see that happen. And you start to see, “That’s painful, I don’t wanna do that anymore” and then you start changing the old way of, whenever this feeling arises, then this always happens. And when you’re able to do that, there’s a freedom, and a happiness that comes that’s just remarkable. And, yeah, nibbana is what we want in this lifetime, that’s really true, but we have to have a lot of mundane nibbanas occur before we get the big wocko, before the big nibbana, the supermundane occurs. And that means we have to start letting go of more and more subtleties about how mind grabs onto things.  And being able to let those go and relax into them. And this is, ah, there’s two things that happen when you start doing this. One, you learn how to let go of the control. Like we’ve all developed for I don’t know how many lifetimes, the idea that, with our mind, we can control what happens. And when we can’t, that’s when the dissatisfaction comes up. So what you’re doing, every time you relax, is you’re letting go of the idea that there’s any controller at all. And as you do that more and more, then you start developing this lighter, more alert mind. So the smile, as dumb as it sounds, is a key that really helps. And the lighter you can keep your mind, with the attitudes, the opinions, the concepts, the imaginations, the projections, all of these, you start letting go of those, because they really don’t matter, they’re only your ideas about what the truth is, and looking at the underlying cause of that, which is always the craving and the clinging.

S:  One of the things that I find interesting is the awareness of where the decision is being made. For example you might be driving a car, and you might be coming to an intersection that allows you to take a different route to your destination. And at that intersection there’s two choices, and both of them are equally the same, but somehow a decision gets made to take this one or that one. And it’s like, why did that happen?

BV: It happened because of past experience. And it’s not necessarily, just because this past experience in this lifetime. The intuition, that little quiet voice that says stuff, and it’s always right, that is from your wholesome nature of past lifetimes, arising right now. And then it comes to the point, and it says “Turn left here.” And that’s where your decision, if the intuition is strong enough, you’ll just follow it without considering it. If it’s not, then you’ll have the craving and the clinging get into it, and the justifying mind that say “No, I don’t wanna turn here, I wanna go there.”

S:  My dad would never go left at a fork in a road, it was kinda weird….

BV: That might’ve happened from ten lifetimes of having something when he went left, that something bad happened.

S:  My mother would get real mad at him, because she knew that where we had to go was right down here, and ….

S: It’s the point of decision that I find kind of curious, because it’s not, it doesn’t seem conscious. It doesn’t even seem intuitive. It’s just all of a sudden, “Oh I’m going this way.” Where was that decision made? You know?

BV: subtle stuff!

S:  Yeah, very subtle.

BV: But it gets, turned into incredibly fun to watch. I mean, everything gets into it.  You know that I like to do repetitious things, like that picture that I made and that sort of thing for you, with little pieces of string. That repetition gives me the opportunity to watch how my mind is doing. And I love that. But, other people don’t like it, they say it’s boring, but it’s anything but boring, to me! It’s doing the same movements over and over again, but being able to watch what my mind’s doing while I’m doing that. Because it’s basically what you’re doing when you’re sitting. You’re watching your breath, you’re doing it over and over again, you’re not moving your body. It’s basically doing the same thing. And you have to learn, when you first start, you have to learn that yeah, boredom is going to come up, and yeah, welcome to the real world, and whose boredom is it, and what do you do when you get bored, and how do you distract yourself so that you won’t have that? And then when you go through that, that’s just like, doors all of a sudden open up, and everything becomes real interesting.

S:  Like pulling weeds in the garden….

BV: Yeah.

S: Very dynamic kind of meditation practice.

BV: It is. It really is. And you have to be careful while you’re doing it, or else you’ll screw up, and pull the wrong plants, or miss something, or whatever.

One of the things that Bhikkhu Bodhi does in this book is he uses the word “extirpate.” So when he goes up to pull weeds, he’s going to extirpate the weeds. <laughs>

S:  Liberate the weeds.

BV: Pulling out by the root. <laughs>

S:  The sutta that it came from…. Everything else was simple plain words, and then he chose those ones... became a favorite.

BV: Is there any question about your practice at all?

S:  I sometimes feel like I’m floundering around. …I’m watching the breath, and relaxing the mind, and it’s kind of, almost mantra-like…

BV: But watch the littleness, it gets real interesting. Don’t put your mind on automatic while you’re doing it. When you do things by rote, you have a tendency to think while you’re doing it.

S:  Well I’m not thinking. But it’s just that I’m staying with it, but it’s... It doesn’t seem like … investigation.

BV: Well take more interest in it. The more interested you get, the more enthusiasm you get, the deeper you go. It’s such subtle things. You have to be really careful with your energy. Because if you put too much in, your mind is going to start to get a little restless. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re gonna have a lot of thoughts, but the restlessness is a feeling that’s a painful feeling, and there is reaction in that. And if you don’t put quite enough energy into it, you go into the dullness. You’re not going to go into sleepiness so much anymore. But your mind is just gonna dull out a little bit. When your mind gets dull, you’ll hit the space, where it’s just like your mind just blanks. It’s like somebody took an eraser and cleaned off the board. Ok that’s because you’re not putting enough effort and energy into watching. So take more interest in how that happens. And also you have to be careful of your body energy too. Because that will happen when your body energy starts to go down. And that happens, that’s a sign that you need to get up and walk.

Now also watch when we do this in the morning, how your mind doesn’t really want to, so it just kind of puts it on automatic. I mean, really do it. There’s a reason for doing this. And that’s just showing you another set of your clinging, and your attachment. “This is boring, I do it everyday, I don’t really like doing it, I don’t wanna do it… But I’ll do it anyway.” But that has a lot of aversion in it. So let go of the aversion and things will come alive for you when you’re doing this. I mean it’s really amazing.

S:  hallelujah! <laughs>

BV: Yeah!

 

Anyway, let’s share some merit.

 

 

May suffering ones, be suffering free

And the fear struck, fearless be

May the grieving shed all grief

And may all beings find relief.

 

May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired

For the acquisition of all kinds of happiness.

 

May beings inhabiting space and earth

Devas and nagas of mighty power

Share this merit of ours.

 

May they long protect the Lord Buddha's dispensation.

 

Sadhu . . . Sadhu . . . Sadhu . . .

 

Sutta text translation: (C) Bhikkhu Bodhi 1995, 2001. Reprinted from The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya with permission of Wisdom Publications, 199 Elm Street, Somerville, MA 02144 U.S.A, www.wisdompubs.org        

 

 

 

 Text last edited: 11-Feb-08